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okay I get
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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gatri
picture of the week surely was the sight
of the Middle East peace Envoy Tony BL
at Ariel chiron's funeral emoting like
he did that morning when Diana died I
was sure he was going to so at any
moment shaon was the people's butcher
warmly embracing shon's son G lad the
son that is not the two-ton Burger King
who is on record as saying that Gaza and
presumably it's nearly 2 million
inhabitants should be flattened like
Hiroshima with a nuclear bomb Blair
seems utterly oblivious to the way he's
viewed by the 350 million Arabs in the
Middle East or maybe he just doesn't
care well to Tony Blair Ariel Chiron was
bold unorthodox unyielding to many if
not most in the Middle East Ariel Sheron
was the The Butcher of perut for his
role in the 1982 Massacre of up to 3,500
Palestinians in the shabra and chatila
refugee camps I was in Beirut in 1982
when the Israeli Defense Force invaded
Lebanon on mass I just made it out of
the country ahead of the phosphorus
bombs and the tanks I returned
immediately after they were forced to
withdraw by the Lebanese resistance and
went to the two camps that had once been
my home Sabra and shatila some of the
Dead remain AED unburied the stench was
unmistakable the camps were full of
wandering wailing women children and old
men against the Butcher of perut the
women children and old men in the camps
had of course been defenseless for the
Palestinian Fighters had all sealed away
to a new Exile in Far Away Tunisia they
did so under a United States guarantee
signed by President Reagan's
representative Philip khabib that their
families would not be harmed once they
were no longer there to protect protect
them but before the ink on the promise
was dry their fam's blood was running in
the open sewers of the camp Ariel Shon
stood throughout the night of the
massacre on the roof of the Kuwaiti
Embassy on the perimeter of the camp
directing the giant search lights and
incendiary flares which turned the night
into day and illuminated the HS of the
camp the better for the falangist
militia men to go house to house with
their knives bayonets and swords even
the Israeli government of the former
terrorist leader prime minister mahim
beIN was forced to set up an inquiry the
Kahan commission which concluded with
sheron's responsibility and his
dismissal and banning from public office
none of this narrative made it into the
eulogies of Blair and Co so we're
devoting this episode of Sputnik to
remembering the real Ariel Chiron
joining us now is a very great Israeli
the antithesis of Ariel shaon the
deceased Israeli Premier was known as
the bulldozer casting away Stones Jeff
Halper gathers Stones together whilst
Israeli Prime Ministers bulldo
Palestinian homes Jeff rebuilds them as
an act of resistance he's the founder of
the Israeli Committee Against house
demolitions he organizes mobilizes
fundraisers all over the world for this
Noble purpose nonviolent direct action
and Civil Disobedience are his tools and
he spoiled many a good day out for the
bulldozers he was once nominated in 20
06 for the Nobel Peace Prize but it
turned out he hadn't started enough Wars
to win it our prize is to have him here
Jeff harer it's an honor to have you
here on the Sputnik till us first of all
as an American Israeli
1973 uh you've been in Israel since how
did the death of shaon impact on you it
had a very little impact I mean he
really died eight years ago you know I
think there's been a big distance
he kind of faded the death was kind of
anticlimactic but I think it marked um
a you know
it it didn't mark an end of an era in
fact in fact I would say that Chiron is
has been Vindicated to some degree by
Netanyahu because the the the the
exclusive militaristic way in which he
approached things I think is something
that's just that's just rooted in
Israeli policy the only way it knows how
to react is is is
militarily let me say one thing about
Chiron though he was a big thinker the
whole idea of the Lebanon war was to
overthrow Hussein move the PLO into
Jordan have Jordan be the Palestinian
State and then that relieves Israel of
the pressures to give up the occupation
because here there is a Palestinian
state in Jordan that was always his his
Mantra I think what happened here was
interesting with Chiron though there's
one thing that people haven't haven't
looked at and that is why did he leave
Gaza and and actually there's in the in
har newspaper the Israeli newspaper you
know there's reports that he was
considering further withdrawals from the
West Bank I think that he in the very
beginning rejected what was called the
Arab peace initiative of 2002 where the
entire Arab League it formulated by
Saudi Arabia yeah H said to Israel if
you give up your occupation we will not
only make make peace with you will
integrate you into the region and Israel
rejected it and uh didn't even relate to
it but I think Chiron got it I think
after a year or two he began to see that
the subtext was these conservative Arab
regimes are really asking Israel to be
the regional hedgemon they want Israel
to kind of take over the Middle East I
mean there's if you take away the
occupation there's a tremendous
similarity in foreign and domestic
interest between these conservative
regimes in Israel they're on the same
page especially against Iran and he was
in the process of I think getting out of
a lot of the occupied territories
because even the Arab regime said look
we have public opinion on our streets we
can't normalize with you as long as
there's occupation get rid of most of it
I think he thought and I think rightly
so that the Palestinians would give in
enough that he could keep the main
settlements keep most of East Jerusalem
so he didn't have to to give up
everything but basically settle with the
Palestinians and then Israel becomes a
regional hedgemon because the part of
Israel that people don't I think see is
that it's not really I mean now
Netanyahu is a little guy a little
thinker so he's into Judea Samaria
settlements all this little little stuff
but Chiron I think really wanted Israel
to run the Middle East so that does
appear from what you say to be two Sid
Ides to this man he was a brute but not
only a brute he was a butcher but not
only a butcher so how do you measure uh
the uh deterioration or otherwise of
Israeli political leadership since he
left office you described Netanyahu as a
little guy equally brutal but with no
kind of vision at all that's right well
we have to remember about
Chiron I don't want to humanize the guy
too much I mean he was a really brutal
terrible guy but again he did have that
he he wasn't simply a a murderer like uh
um you know like sometimes we think of
him I mean he did have he was going so
he had this this bigger Vision but he
wasn't a leud guy he wasn't from the
right wing he grew up with Rabin and
mosha Dian he was in the palmach he was
in the labor camp actually so when he
moved over to the right wing in in in
his militaristic sense and began to
build settlements he was the architect
of the settlements with beggan and so on
there was always a pragmatic part of
Chiron they came from the labor party he
was natany was born into the leud he was
born into the revisionist movement he's
an ideologue Chiron was never an
ideologue he used violence and and brute
force and the
military but he used them in in in a
sense in in a in a practical sort of a
way so in other words he was able to I
guess to
parley his military thinking and his and
his violent urge into Grand
strategies Netanyahu is an
ideologue he's uh he's limited and all
he really cares about is this little
Israel that controls the Palestinians
and controls the occupied terrores as
well the people on the street of Israel
see that as well that he was the man
with the big vision and netan no I don't
think so I think that big vision part
has been lost I I I I don't think you
know Chiron got the stroke before he was
able to really articulate where he was
going so a lot of this is is conjecture
but what I'm saying if you look back at
the Lebanon war of 1982 there was a a a
plan a big plan to to redo the whole
Middle East behind the Lebanon Invasion
there was a big plan behind the
so-called disengagement from Gaza that I
think had to do with Israel becoming a
regional hedgemon in the Middle East
um but then he had the stroke and he had
never had a CH you know and why I'm say
partly why I'm saying this is because
you know remember he left the leud the
leud was too small for him it was too
ideological it was too confining he went
and set up his own party kadema that
would give him that Latitude to do these
big things so the Israeli leaders have
been getting smaller um yeah ever since
gold ofay ear I would say is that going
to continue uh how dwarfish uh can they
get and where is it
going no I think it's going it's going
to continue there's no left in Israel I
mean that's part of the problem too I
mean uh the labor party is uh completely
gone almost uh there's nobody
articulating any kind of of a vision of
any kind of Peace labor has become it
calls itself a Social Democratic party
that doesn't even deal with the occup
the occupation has become a non-issue in
Israel that's where the different
governments have succeeded and really
taking it off the agenda people don't
think about it because inside Israel
it's not an issue you're not going to
move the people I can't get a surgeon to
operate on his own foot exactly that's
right that's right so what you have to
do is mobilize the International
Community and I think that's happening
it hasn't trickled up yet to the
governments I mean Cameron is still
super pro Israel and everything else but
I think there's been a tremendous change
in public opinion I think there's been a
ground swell even in the United States
and I think that's starting to trickle
up into the governments I mean the EU
has taken some pretty principled stands
recently and that's our strategy it's
kind of like the South African strategy
in which peace won't come from inside it
won't come Israelis aren't going to
overthrow the occupation but when the
declerk comes whatever the de clerk is
whether it's Obama or the UN or the EU
or simply International pressures and
the whole occupation becomes
unsustainable I think we're getting
there I think at that point uh the
Israeli public will not be an obstacle I
think they'll they'll go along with it
but the pressures are going to have to
come from abroad from outside and that's
why we're working to try to uh influence
mobilize public opinion and governments
abroad to put the pressures on Israel
that you need to end the conflict Jeff
Halper it's been fascinating as always
talking to you okay thank you much after
the break we'll be talking to another of
the world's braver men he makes films
and good ones he's becoming a star of
the solidarity movement entirely
voluntarily he lives in Gaza his name
inappropriately is Harry
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fear welcome back to Sputnik no man
could have failed to live up to his name
quite so comprehensively than Harry fear
he Braves bullet shot and shell in Gaza
just like the Palestinians do he's
standing on the front line taking
pictures you have to be Fearless for
that Harry fear thanks for joining us
after a grueling 23-hour flight from
Malaysia I just wanted to talk to you as
someone with a foot in either Camp as it
were a man from the West living in the
East living on the front line indeed
what impact do you think the demise of
Ariel shaon who has dominated the
political landscape even in his coma uh
over these last uh uh DEC decade or more
what impact do you think his demise will
have well I hope that it will close a
more bloody passage in Israel's history
I mean we've seen Palestinians some of
them celebrating this uh passing from
this life to the next because this is
the only Act of justice that has ever
come uh to Ariel Chiron I mean he he
totally missed all Justice in this life
and for the Palestinians the largely
believing people of course this is the
something to celebrate that finally
power will be wielded against a man who
was a butcher who acted like a
psychopath and who uh with the
propaganda and hypocrisy of the western
media and Western leaders has been
hailed as some kind of devoted loving
leader for his country and his people
but of course what that means is that if
he did love his country and his people
and he was so true to his country and he
was also a butcher then it also
obviously identifies that his country
has a serious problem with blood in its
hand generally
um and that I think is the number one
thing about his passing which the the
Discerning uh can see the the picture of
the week had to be uh the Middle East
peace Envoy uh done up like an Israeli
uh standing there emoting as if Princess
Diana had uh just passed as someone from
Britain like me was that hard to Bear it
was but I I was thinking about that just
myself earlier because you know the
treatment of shiron as if he was some
kind of um I don't know gift to mankind
or some kind of gift to world leadership
and the irony of how he is treated so uh
latently in the western media and it's
exactly the same with Tony Blair himself
I mean he is a war criminal and
generally people hate him and they're
disgusted by the mentioning of his name
but in the media it's nothing like that
at all he's given some kind of parade
and there must be balance and moderation
in the comment um you know it's as if
you know the the Israeli media speak of
shiron as if he you know went after
peace with Palestinians in the final
years what it's like saying Tony Blair
went after peace with Iraq and killed
almost a million people well they say
they say for example that shaon withdrew
from Gaza but as someone based in Gaza
you know that Israel hasn't withdrawn
from Gaza they control everything uh
that concerns the lives of the people in
Gaza and the key here is that they say
that it was a withdrawal and it was used
for public propaganda purposes or
diplomatic purposes as a gesture of
peace and Concession but actually if you
look at it more cynically if you were
him uh you would have done that because
then it allows you to consolidate the
parts of the West Bank and other parts
of the historic Palestinian territory
which they can hold on to and that's
what we're seeing now with the
negotiations tell us how things are now
for the people in Gaza well to be honest
with you they've got worse obviously
because of the situation in Egypt the
Hamas authorities have lost their Ally
uh the violence is increasing in the
last few weeks I mean generally after
the November 2012 war in the months
following that things were quieter uh
there was less tit fortat uh but now
things are slowly escalating again into
a way that they were about two years ago
um one hopes that that won't continue
but the people are isolated the
besiegement continues in broad daylight
against the law against all morals and
then you have the you know France the UK
and the American politicians then you
know affectionately applauding Ariel
shiron I mean you just couldn't make it
up what about the the recent floods that
were a result of the bad weather and
heavy rainfall and Israel's control over
the dams yeah I mean people in Gaza said
that when there was the recent um uh
storm Alexa that Israel flooded parts of
Gaza to further uh you know damage the
population uh and there is limited
evidence for that but the key here is
that as I mentioned it's The Siege The
Siege is a man-made disaster and it's
The Siege which means that Gaza has
basically no capacity and infrastructure
to deal with natural disasters um at all
and of course the siege of the
destruction of the tunnels must have
meant that the economic situation for
the almost 2 million Palestinians in
Gaza uh um grew even more catastrophic
indeed the economic situation and also I
would frankly say the
because the symbolic cutting off of
Egypt the symbolic lack of support from
the Arab countries from the
International Community I mean Gaza in a
way is one of the most forgotten places
on Earth in terms of uh actual support
uh perhaps in terms of sympathy among
the Muslims even amongst the Arabs and
increasingly obviously the Europeans
people are sympathetic but political
support zero no shiron has gone uh
Netanyahu uh intellectually you might
say more dwarfish figure a more even
more Petty and venal uh figure uh how
does it look to you how securely is he
in place are we in for another decade of
Netanyahu I don't think so actually I
think that I mean if you take the
November 2012 War which is certainly one
of the things that will Define him I
believe uh I think many uh israelies and
according to the polls they believe that
he handled that very badly and he was
forced to give into a ceas fire and I
think that there is a large contingent
of Israelis in politics there who think
that he has failed militarily and
failing militarily of course is very
important in the Israeli currency
because Ariel Chiron seen as This
Magnificent leader was of massive
military strategic strength and Etc and
of course responsible for massacres in
Lebanon so in Israel it's almost like
you know creating blood and terrorizing
Palestinians and knocking them into the
darkest corners of the earth is success
so Netanyahu I don't think is so much
established uh in that uh image um and I
hope for Israel and I hope for the
Palestinians and for the uh for the
region that we won't be in for another
10 years with him you are a very central
figure now uh in international
solidarity with the Palestinian people
what's the current state of play I would
say that there is a lot of sympathy
there there is a lot of yearning for
support I would say that sometimes s the
support isn't properly galvanized it's
not strategic enough um but of course at
the same time uh more subjectively there
are successes which people hold on to
there is of course the BDS movement with
the boycotts and Etc which there are
always successes which are held up for
good reason and I always say the BDS uh
movement as one of the main uh pincers
of the solidarity in terms of actually
moving to action and accountability and
Justice um is something which we should
support because BDS and boycotting
itself is a very human intuitive thing
you know if you have an argument with
someone just walk away so that's what
we're doing with Israel I would say at
the same time there are fractures within
the solidarity movement uh there is of
course infighting as there is with any
organization or movement and that is
obviously very weakening um and very
difficult uh for people to deal with um
but I hope that the solidarity movement
uh doesn't last much much longer because
of course the solidarity movement is
something which has existed for decades
because the conflict has existed for
decades so I certainly hope it won't be
needed much longer um and I think the
solidarity movement must find its
freshness it must not become entrenched
direct Aid into the Palestinians is
becoming much more difficult Once Upon a
Time as you know I took many convoys
there I wouldn't be able to do so now I
couldn't travel across North Africa as I
did with the first of those convoys I
wouldn't be able to go through Syria as
I did with the second or third of those
convoys and now with Egypt I don't want
to put you in any difficulty uh the
Egyptian position has markedly changed
any ideas how we can break that Log Jam
well there was a petition recently to
the Egyptian embassies around the world
saying you got to open the border at
least uh send it back to how it was a
year ago even if you don't open it up
for normal economic and pedestrian
traffic and of course they with the
claims that well if we do anything to
improve the Border then Israel will just
abgate its responsibilities towards Gaza
and Egypt rather guys will become a part
of Egypt in a in a pseudo way but of
course these don't stand up to any
humanitarian argument or any moral
argument uh or any Regional argument
because uh Egyptians are brothers with
Palestinians in a way that Israelis
aren't um and really the instability in
Egypt um I think one of the biggest
tragedies is the situ situation in Gaza
and that's why the situation in Egypt is
so vital for Gaza in a in a very
short-term emergency way Harry thanks
for joining us on the
Sputnik this is where you tell us what
you think through our social media
Roundup looking at our Twitter and our
Facebook gri what's rattling well you
remember that bush and Blair um spoke
about ER Chiron as the man of Peace yes
well when I put it that way on Twitter
and on Facebook I received a flood of
comments rat Cass says war criminals
stick together see no evil here no evil
Leila hatum says that there's an Arabic
saying no one would say their own oil is
rotten so murderers won't call out on of
their own Ahmed says if peace means
killing of innocent people then yes he
was a peace Champion along with bush and
Blair and Maid ayat says well if you
believe in big food Santa Claus and the
Smurf then yes he was a man of peace all
comments like this it's amazing well I I
remember when Bush first said that shaon
was a man of Peace making the point that
even Ariel shaon wouldn't describe
himself as a man of Peace but Blair
repeated this utter falsehood at his
eulogy uh in the uh in the funeral uh
ceremony I must say that I thought my
opinion of Tony Blair could not fall any
further but the sight of him and the
sound of him at that funeral really put
the tin hat on it as far as I was
concerned I go on anymore well on
Facebook John L house says well we
should all trust Bush and Blair they
always tell the truth and shafen Ahmed
says some newpapers comment that he's
controversial man but he's not
controversial at all he's just a war
criminal he's bloodthirsty and he's a
murder
and you can speak of all three about of
them but what uh is interesting is uh
Jeff halper's testimony that uh that he
was of course a butcher he was a
murderer and for more than 50 years but
actually had quite a big brain and he
had a strategic vision of making Israel
the regional hegemon the greater Israel
from the Euphrates to the Nile which is
what the two stripes on the Israeli flag
are supposed to signify so uh in that
sense we should be glad that he didn't
succeed well um the last one from uh
Facebook is from Rahman Lincoln saying
that only a terrorist can call him man
of peace and that's all that we've got
time for this week which alas means
that's the end of the show keep giving
us your opinions your comments and
everything on Twitter at rtor Sputnik
and on Facebook you can find us at
Sputnik on Russia today that's it for me
gatri and from me George Galloway it's
been marvelous
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